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	<title>Comments on: Get off the Lit-Crit Tip</title>
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	<description>Life after the creative writing MFA &#124; Writing tips &#124; Author interviews &#124; Creative writing links, and more.</description>
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		<title>By: Imani</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-4817</link>
		<dc:creator>Imani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-4817</guid>
		<description>But isn&#039;t symbolism one of the tool&#039;s of one&#039;s craft? If one chooses to use it, does it not help in creating the form of one&#039;s work? And if it&#039;s executed poorly, couldn&#039;t one learn from that as well?

Hello Armand, I wandered back here after you commented on my blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But isn&#8217;t symbolism one of the tool&#8217;s of one&#8217;s craft? If one chooses to use it, does it not help in creating the form of one&#8217;s work? And if it&#8217;s executed poorly, couldn&#8217;t one learn from that as well?</p>
<p>Hello Armand, I wandered back here after you commented on my blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Allison Landa</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-4774</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison Landa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-4774</guid>
		<description>My colleagues at St. Mary&#039;s College of California&#039;s MFA program were very familiar with my bitching about this.

Learning to write and learning to lit-crit are different animals. We got two years to work on our writing, not to smoke our theoretical cigars and pontificate. Whenever our classes slipped into lit-crit mode -- and they did far too often -- I&#039;d just start writing in my notebook, working on my own stuff. 

At best it bored me. At worst, it felt like a waste of time and money.

Of course you can learn from other writers&#039; choices. But what I wanted to learn was the craft that glued their work together, not the symbolism that could be pulled out of any old ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My colleagues at St. Mary&#8217;s College of California&#8217;s MFA program were very familiar with my bitching about this.</p>
<p>Learning to write and learning to lit-crit are different animals. We got two years to work on our writing, not to smoke our theoretical cigars and pontificate. Whenever our classes slipped into lit-crit mode &#8212; and they did far too often &#8212; I&#8217;d just start writing in my notebook, working on my own stuff. </p>
<p>At best it bored me. At worst, it felt like a waste of time and money.</p>
<p>Of course you can learn from other writers&#8217; choices. But what I wanted to learn was the craft that glued their work together, not the symbolism that could be pulled out of any old ass.</p>
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		<title>By: gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-2528</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-2528</guid>
		<description>yeah -- it has been a bit since I posted. Holidays just completely took over. But, no more excuses. I think we&#039;re back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah &#8212; it has been a bit since I posted. Holidays just completely took over. But, no more excuses. I think we&#8217;re back.</p>
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		<title>By: Armand</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-2463</link>
		<dc:creator>Armand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-2463</guid>
		<description>Hi Imani-

Thanks very much for being a reader- without avid readers, writers are nothing!

As for going into more detail on the topic of the connection between contemporary writing and old literature, I&#039;m going to beg off that duty for just right now. I think it&#039;s taking us kind of far off the original topic of my post- maybe we could jointly address it in a future post?

Finally, I hope (ahem) Gordon puts up a new posting; it&#039;s been a while.

Armand</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Imani-</p>
<p>Thanks very much for being a reader- without avid readers, writers are nothing!</p>
<p>As for going into more detail on the topic of the connection between contemporary writing and old literature, I&#8217;m going to beg off that duty for just right now. I think it&#8217;s taking us kind of far off the original topic of my post- maybe we could jointly address it in a future post?</p>
<p>Finally, I hope (ahem) Gordon puts up a new posting; it&#8217;s been a while.</p>
<p>Armand</p>
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		<title>By: gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-2188</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 03:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-2188</guid>
		<description>What a great thread of comments. Thanks to everyone for sending in your thoughts, and to Armand for his provocative posts. Nice stuff.

-gordon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a great thread of comments. Thanks to everyone for sending in your thoughts, and to Armand for his provocative posts. Nice stuff.</p>
<p>-gordon</p>
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		<title>By: Imani</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-2154</link>
		<dc:creator>Imani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jan 2007 05:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-2154</guid>
		<description>Oh well, crap, I guess this is where I mention I&#039;m not a writer and am not in any MFA programme? I&#039;m a mere snotty reader. 

Tee hee.

I did mention on my blog centuries ago that I thought your point on why overly theoretical lit crit may not be the best sort of approach to texts in a MFA programme. (I especially like it because I hate lit theory.) That makes sense to me. I&#039;m looking forward to seeing you expand on the points with which I disagree because I&#039;d really like to get a better idea of where you&#039;re coming from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh well, crap, I guess this is where I mention I&#8217;m not a writer and am not in any MFA programme? I&#8217;m a mere snotty reader. </p>
<p>Tee hee.</p>
<p>I did mention on my blog centuries ago that I thought your point on why overly theoretical lit crit may not be the best sort of approach to texts in a MFA programme. (I especially like it because I hate lit theory.) That makes sense to me. I&#8217;m looking forward to seeing you expand on the points with which I disagree because I&#8217;d really like to get a better idea of where you&#8217;re coming from.</p>
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		<title>By: Armand</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-2151</link>
		<dc:creator>Armand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jan 2007 03:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-2151</guid>
		<description>@ Todd and Imani-

Thank you both for your thought-provoking feedback. I&#039;m glad we all found a unique path to our writing.

also @ Imani-

Thanks for bringing your viewpoint to the fore! I think you and I would probably disagree on some of the fundamentals as to why people read and write, and it would make for some very interesting correspondence, so I hope you keep coming back. I would be very interested in discovering how your MFA and writing experiences evolved.

also @ Todd,

in regard to this:

&quot;And you really had to complete a novel in 2 years to complete your MFA? This is hard to for me to imagine, but I tend to write slowly.&quot;

There was no requirement that I complete a novel (or in my case, a book of short stories) in the time I was at grad school- if I gave that impression, then I apologize. I think that my requirement was something like 80 pages, minimum.

What I was trying to get at is the notion that, for many of us, an MFA program is a golden time for crafting as much of a book as possible.

thanks again-

Armand</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Todd and Imani-</p>
<p>Thank you both for your thought-provoking feedback. I&#8217;m glad we all found a unique path to our writing.</p>
<p>also @ Imani-</p>
<p>Thanks for bringing your viewpoint to the fore! I think you and I would probably disagree on some of the fundamentals as to why people read and write, and it would make for some very interesting correspondence, so I hope you keep coming back. I would be very interested in discovering how your MFA and writing experiences evolved.</p>
<p>also @ Todd,</p>
<p>in regard to this:</p>
<p>&#8220;And you really had to complete a novel in 2 years to complete your MFA? This is hard to for me to imagine, but I tend to write slowly.&#8221;</p>
<p>There was no requirement that I complete a novel (or in my case, a book of short stories) in the time I was at grad school- if I gave that impression, then I apologize. I think that my requirement was something like 80 pages, minimum.</p>
<p>What I was trying to get at is the notion that, for many of us, an MFA program is a golden time for crafting as much of a book as possible.</p>
<p>thanks again-</p>
<p>Armand</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-2146</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-2146</guid>
		<description>@Armand,
Actually, as I&#039;ve thought back, my best lit courses in grad school focused very little on lit crit. In them, I had an experience closer to what Richard describes in his comment. I was especially appreciative of my guide through Ulysses in my Joyce course. And reading and studying Milton&#039;s Paradise Lost in depth was just a joy as a reader. Milton&#039;s use of language rivals Shakespeare. As far as lit crit, I think at least one course in theory would be valuable for any writer, even if the primary purpose is to satirize lit crit, as David Lodge does in his academic novels, or even Roth to some extent in The Human Stain.

And you really had to complete a novel in 2 years to complete your MFA? This is hard to for me to imagine, but I tend to write slowly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Armand,<br />
Actually, as I&#8217;ve thought back, my best lit courses in grad school focused very little on lit crit. In them, I had an experience closer to what Richard describes in his comment. I was especially appreciative of my guide through Ulysses in my Joyce course. And reading and studying Milton&#8217;s Paradise Lost in depth was just a joy as a reader. Milton&#8217;s use of language rivals Shakespeare. As far as lit crit, I think at least one course in theory would be valuable for any writer, even if the primary purpose is to satirize lit crit, as David Lodge does in his academic novels, or even Roth to some extent in The Human Stain.</p>
<p>And you really had to complete a novel in 2 years to complete your MFA? This is hard to for me to imagine, but I tend to write slowly.</p>
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		<title>By: Imani</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-2033</link>
		<dc:creator>Imani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Dec 2006 03:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-2033</guid>
		<description>For days I have been trying to think of a nice way to respond to the idea that anything written before the 1950&#039;s starts getting a little &quot;archaic&quot; and anything before the late 19th century could not be useful for a MFA student. (Because you&#039;re contemporary!) And I can&#039;t. So I&#039;ll quote Nabokov (who should be recent enough to be of some use to you, I hope).

&lt;i&gt;A creative  writer  must study carefully the works of his rivals, including the Almighty.  He  must  possess  the  inborn capacity  not  only of recombining but of re-creating the given world. In order to do this adequately, avoiding duplication  of labor,   the   artist   should  know  the  given  world. Imagination without knowledge leads no farther  than  the  back yard of primitive art, the child&#039;s scrawl on the fence, and the crank&#039;s  message  in  the market place.&lt;/i&gt;

I assume a major reason one enters an MFA programme is to improve one&#039;s craft, yes? It&#039;s not to ape another style. What possible advantage could books written in the past 50 years have over the &quot;archaic&quot; texts besides more familiar spelling? Seriously. If the answer has something to do with more ready evidence of what&#039;s currently &quot;marketable&quot; I will slink back to my blog, crying quietly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For days I have been trying to think of a nice way to respond to the idea that anything written before the 1950&#8242;s starts getting a little &#8220;archaic&#8221; and anything before the late 19th century could not be useful for a MFA student. (Because you&#8217;re contemporary!) And I can&#8217;t. So I&#8217;ll quote Nabokov (who should be recent enough to be of some use to you, I hope).</p>
<p><i>A creative  writer  must study carefully the works of his rivals, including the Almighty.  He  must  possess  the  inborn capacity  not  only of recombining but of re-creating the given world. In order to do this adequately, avoiding duplication  of labor,   the   artist   should  know  the  given  world. Imagination without knowledge leads no farther  than  the  back yard of primitive art, the child&#8217;s scrawl on the fence, and the crank&#8217;s  message  in  the market place.</i></p>
<p>I assume a major reason one enters an MFA programme is to improve one&#8217;s craft, yes? It&#8217;s not to ape another style. What possible advantage could books written in the past 50 years have over the &#8220;archaic&#8221; texts besides more familiar spelling? Seriously. If the answer has something to do with more ready evidence of what&#8217;s currently &#8220;marketable&#8221; I will slink back to my blog, crying quietly.</p>
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		<title>By: Armand</title>
		<link>http://www.afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html/comment-page-1#comment-1842</link>
		<dc:creator>Armand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://afterthemfa.com/archives/get-off-the-lit-crit-tip.html#comment-1842</guid>
		<description>@ Todd

I do see your point about reading older writers. I didn&#039;t do a very good job of addressing that particular part of the topic because it was more a sidebar issue to the greater topic of Lit Crit courses.

As for me- I still humbly disagree with the notion that MFA writers must read the classics in an academic setting.

Reading the classics seems like an issue of interest to many people. If you write up a post on it, I&#039;d be excited to read it.

thanks-

Armand</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Todd</p>
<p>I do see your point about reading older writers. I didn&#8217;t do a very good job of addressing that particular part of the topic because it was more a sidebar issue to the greater topic of Lit Crit courses.</p>
<p>As for me- I still humbly disagree with the notion that MFA writers must read the classics in an academic setting.</p>
<p>Reading the classics seems like an issue of interest to many people. If you write up a post on it, I&#8217;d be excited to read it.</p>
<p>thanks-</p>
<p>Armand</p>
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